MicroObservatory
Online discussion.  
Wednesday, 7/16
TOPIC 1:  IMAGE PROCESSING:
WHY DOES AN IMAGE COME OUT BLACK; OTHER PROBLEMS WITH 
TAKING IMAGES
TOPIC 2 (begins at end of meeting, continued on Thursday):
How is using MicroObservatory different from downloading 
images from a pre-existing database or archive?  How is it more 
effective educationally?


You have just entered room ÒmicroobservatoryÓ
LFrench637:	Hi Beth!
LFrench637:	Hi Bruce!
BMellin503:	Hi linda
NO1STAR:	Hello From bob Hillenbrand in California
BMellin503:	!
NO1STAR:	Finally got a chance to get here
LFrench637:	Hi there No1...I forget your first name.
NO1STAR:	Bob
NO1STAR:	Forgot about that
LFrench637:	Thanks Bob.  Bruce, did you want to say something?
BMellin503:	Yes - who was interested in sunspots from yesterdays 
session?
R Maki:	me
NO1STAR:	Interesting - I might like to see what you got posted
BMellin503:	I have developed some exercises and background that 
we could share GA
LFrench637:	That sounds great, Bruce.
LFrench637:	Is everyone ready to start the meeting?
RobOchs:	yes
BMellin503:	yes
Fsdeutsch:	yes
Lwaxman:	yes
Everhartj:	yes
SheM2G:	yes
Nazin:	yes
JCatanz1:	yes
LFrench637:	Welcome to today's MicroObservatory Online Meeting.  
I'm Linda French,
R Maki:	yes
NO1STAR:	go
LFrench637:	the project astronomer.
LFrench637:	Also present online are Beth Hoffman, the Workshop 
Director, and Freeman Deutsch,
LFrench637:	the software engineer.
LFrench637:	Our meetings are conducted in protocol to ensure a smooth 
flow of conversation.
LFrench637:	If you have a question or a comment, please type "!", and 
you will be recognized in turn.
LFrench637:	When you have finished, type "GA" to let others know you are 
done.
LFrench637:	Side conversations are possible by using Instant Messages 
(IM's).
LFrench637:	If you have questions about protocol or about using AOL, 
please IM Beth (BHoff1) or me.

TOPIC:  IMAGE PROCESSING--WHY DOES AN IMAGE COME OUT BLACK; OTHER PROBLEMS 
WITH TAKING IMAGES

LFrench637:	We'd like to consider two major areas today.  First, a 
question came up about why
LFrench637:	an image was black.  We could also discuss any 
problems people are having taking images.
LFrench637:	Second, Roy Gould would like you to address the following 
question:
LFrench637:	How is using MicroObservatory different from 
downloading images 
from a	pre-existing database or archive?  How is it more effective 
educationally?
BMellin503:	!
SheM2G:	!
LFrench637:	This latter question may be better addressed at the end of 
the workshop,
LFrench637:	but it will be useful to think about throughout.
LFrench637:	Can we talk about the images first?
LFrench637:	Joe sent in the question.
LFrench637:	He tried a 60 second exposure of the asteroid Ceres.
LFrench637:	You can see his image in the latest image archive.
LFrench637:	It is mostly dark, but closer examination reveals lots of 
one-pixel "stars".
LFrench637:	These are not really stars, as Roy explained a day or so ago.
LFrench637:	On exposures close to a minute, we begin to see noise due to 
"hot" pixels.
LFrench637:	Real stars cover more than one pixel.
LFrench637:	Other images taken with the Arizona telescope that night do 
show images--I looked
LFrench637:	at one of M31.
LFrench637:	Ceres was not very high in the sky, about 37 degrees 
altitude, and my best guess is that
LFrench637:	there were low clouds in the direction Joe was aiming.
LFrench637:	There is one odd thing about the data collection.
LFrench637:	If an exposure is totally overexposed--the Full Moon for 5 
seconds, for example--
LFrench637:	the image is not white, but black.
LFrench637:	This is in the software.
LFrench637:	In this case, you do not see "hot" pixels.
NO1STAR:	!
LFrench637:	GA Bob.
NO1STAR:	there were others ahead of me
LFrench637:	Oops, sorry.  Bruce, did you want to say something here?
BMellin503:	OK - I was going to respond to your initial question - 
but I will wait GA
LFrench637:	Thanks.  Sheila?
SheM2G:	Ditto to Bruce's response.
SheM2G:	GA
LFrench637:	Now Bob.  :-)
NO1STAR:	I can wait too - just wanted to get in line
LFrench637:	Any questions about images you've taken, or tried to take?
LFrench637:	The floor is open.
BMellin503:	!
RobOchs:	!
JCatanz1:	!
LFrench637:	GA Bruce.
NO1STAR:	!
BMellin503:	Thanks for the explanation - Ive seen those problems - nice 
to know GA
LFrench637:	Good.  GA Rob.
RobOchs:	My first "successful" image of Jupiter had the 
satellites out of focus
RobOchs:	I used the "standard" focus, not the manual focus
RobOchs:	any suggestions? ga
LFrench637:	Freeman, is the manual focus operational?
Fsdeutsch:	yes
Fsdeutsch:	ga
LFrench637:	Any suggestions on how it should be used?
Fsdeutsch:	Steve Leiker is more of an expert on this then I
Fsdeutsch:	I would stick with automatic focus, ga
LFrench637:	Ok, I will check with Steve about the focus.  Thanks.
LFrench637:	GA Joe.
JCatanz1:	the ra and dec listed in the fits header are for center of 
frame?
JCatanz1:	GA
LFrench637:	Freeman?
SheM2G:	!
LFrench637:	Sheila?
SheM2G:	They should be.  I will find out for sure.
Fsdeutsch:	let shelia speack
BMellin503:	!
LFrench637:	Ok.  We will check on that one, Joe.
LFrench637:	I think Bob was next.
LFrench637:	GA Bob.
NO1STAR:	I will take it though - still think others were first
NO1STAR:	I have a couple of questions - can I do multiples ?
NO1STAR:	GA
LFrench637:	Multiple numbers of pictures?  You need to request them one 
at a time.
NO1STAR:	No, several questions
NO1STAR:	GA
LFrench637:	Oh...:-)  sorry.
LFrench637:	Pick one first!
NO1STAR:	First I am quite pleased with the images I got last nite 
- first time and all that, but once
NO1STAR:	I downloaded they disappear from my menu on AOL
NO1STAR:	GA
Fsdeutsch:	!
LFrench637:	GA Freeman.
SheM2G:	!
Fsdeutsch:	You should always use the Netscape Web Browser, do not 
use the AOL browser
Fsdeutsch:	ga
NO1STAR:	!
LFrench637:	Sheila?
SheM2G:	Ditto what Freeman said.  Also, I have a response to Joe
LFrench637:	Ok, GA.
SheM2G:	's earlier question.  I will send him instant mail
SheM2G:	GA
LFrench637:	How about Bruce's question, then Bob again.
BMellin503:	Robert Kimberk-who worked on the telescopes earlier had a 
method for determining how to .......
BMellin503:	Focus it involved some tools not available currently..steve 
might remember Kims method GA
LFrench637:	Ok, we will check with Steve.  GA Bob.
RGould50:	!
R Maki:	!
NO1STAR:	K !
LFrench637:	GA Roy.
NO1STAR:	My other questions is about how to abort an input when 
we catch it later
Fsdeutsch:	!
LFrench637:	Oh, good question.  GA Freeman.
RGould50:	Re the focus
Fsdeutsch:	What do you mean about catch it later
LFrench637:	Oops..Roy on the focus, then Freeman on the abort.
RGould50:	The focus depends on what filter you are using
NO1STAR:	Last nite I hit a minus sign and didn't see it until 
after it had been entered and was worri
RGould50:	and on the temperature
RGould50:	The telescope should automatically choose
RGould50:	the right focus value for the filter you are using...
RGould50:	but if the image does not appear in focus...
RGould50:	just let us know and be sure to specify the filter you used.
RGould50:	We can then adjust the automatic focus...
RGould50:	Re the RA and DEC:
RGould50:	Yes, they should be in the center of the frame but...
RGould50:	there will also be a slight error in pointing the telescope 
so	you have to be vigilant.  Remember that
RGould50:	the frame is wider than can appear on your screen all 
at once so be sure to use the "slider bars" to see the whole image GA
JCatanz1:	!
LFrench637:	Thanks Roy.
Fsdeutsch:	!
LFrench637:	Now, Freeman about aborting an image.
Fsdeutsch:	At present you can not abort a request for an image
Fsdeutsch:	We will consider this for a possible feature in the future
Fsdeutsch:	ga
NO1STAR:	!
LFrench637:	There are safeguards to keep the telescope hurting itself, 
though, correct?
Fsdeutsch:	yes
LFrench637:	Thanks.
LFrench637:	GA Joe.
JCatanz1:	is the pointing error known(ballpark) and another question:
JCatanz1:	how do you read the fits header in image tool?
JCatanz1:	GA
LFrench637:	Roy or Freeman?
SheM2G:	!
RGould50:	Defer to Steve, who has used that program.  I'll ask him
Fsdeutsch:	I hAVE NOT USED IMAGE tool yet, I will let you know!, ga
LFrench637:	Sheila?
SheM2G:	Ditto Roy's coment.
SheM2G:	GA
LFrench637:	It looks as though we need a session with Steve Leiker, 
the project engineer.
LFrench637:	We will try to set that up.
LFrench637:	Any other questions about taking images?
NO1STAR:	!
Nazin:	!
LFrench637:	Ga Bob..
NO1STAR:	What is the time between taking an image and downloading, 
and what is the time to schedule - the 5 min ?
NO1STAR:	GA
R Maki:	!
Fsdeutsch:	!
LFrench637:	Freeman, do you want to take that?
Fsdeutsch:	If you are not taking an image at a bussy time you should
Fsdeutsch:	get you image within 100 min of taking it
Fsdeutsch:	you can look at the image que to see if it is still 
in the que
SheM2G:	!
Fsdeutsch:	If it is not in the que it has been taken and then you can
Fsdeutsch:	see the image in the image directory, ga
Fsdeutsch:	I meant 10 min
Fsdeutsch:	ga
LFrench637:	Sheila, anything to add?
SheM2G:	I was just questionning the 100 min!!!!
LFrench637:	Ok, thanks.  GA Dick.
R Maki:	Could someone explain advantages of various filters...
possibly on BB?
SheM2G:	I have received images in less than 20 min.  GA
NO1STAR:	!
SheM2G:	!
LFrench637:	Yes, that would be a good idea, on the BB.
LFrench637:	The one thing to know about filters is to use the ND4 
(grey) filter when observing the moon.
LFrench637:	GA Bill, sorry to miss you.
Nazin:	Is there a way to tell if weather was a problem and when 
should we be using the finder?
Fsdeutsch:	!
LFrench637:	In general, you use the finder when you want a wide 
field of view.
LFrench637:	Constellations and comets come immediately to mind.
LFrench637:	It is good to check the weather map before an evening, 
so you can know what to expect.
LFrench637:	I don't plan to observe if it is really socked in, like 
MA is today.
LFrench637:	Freeman, did you want to add anything to that?
Fsdeutsch:	no
RGould50:	!
LFrench637:	Roy?
RGould50:	The satellite images work at night as well, so
RGould50:	if you're up late you can check the weather close to the
RGould50:	time that you've requested the image. GA
LFrench637:	There were a couple more !'s--were they new questions or 
comments on old ones?
SheM2G:	old comments, not important GA
NO1STAR:	I know lots of questions - I don't have Netscape via AOL - 
do you download and then add it t
SheM2G:	!
NO1STAR:	Ga
LFrench637:	Bob, you should be hearing from us on Instant Message about 
that.
NO1STAR:	Ok
NO1STAR:	GA
SheM2G:	I will send you some URLs to download it off of web.  GA
LFrench637:	Thanks.
RobOchs:	!
R Maki:	!
LFrench637:	GA Rob.
RobOchs:	Could someone explain exactly what "zoom in" and "zoom out" 
mean? ga
RGould50:	!
LFrench637:	GA Roy.
RGould50:	Zoom out is the setting you should normally use.
RGould50:	Zoom in ELECTRONICALLY enlarges a portion
RGould50:	of the center of the image.
JCatanz1:	!
RGould50:	The telescope imaging system
RGould50:	does not actually "zoom".
RGould50:	GA
SheM2G:	!
LFrench637:	That would be a wild ride on the Earth if it did!
LFrench637:	GA Dick.
RGould50:	!
R Maki:	Please send Netscape info to me as well.   Thanks.
R Maki:	ga
Fsdeutsch:	!
LFrench637:	Would those who want Netscape info please IM Sheila?  Thanks.
SheM2G:	I think of zooming as a magnifying glass.  GA
SheM2G:	I will take care of NEtscape inquiries.  GA
LFrench637:	Freeman, do you have a comment about Netscape?
RobOchs:	!
LFrench637:	[queue is Joe, Rob]
RobOchs:	It might be a good place to relate to everyone that Netscape 
is free for educators.
RobOchs:	No technical support but no guilt ga
Fsdeutsch:	no
LFrench637:	No guilt is worth something!
LFrench637:	GA Joe.
JCatanz1:	i've asked roy by one-way msg..he answered
LFrench637:	Ok, thanks.
SheM2G:	!
LFrench637:	GA Sheila.
SheM2G:	Sorry I have been looking through the web.  You can download
SheM2G:	netscape for free at
SheM2G:	http://home.netscape.com/comprod/mirror/index.html
SheM2G:	GA
LFrench637:	Thanks!

TOPIC:  How is using MicroObservatory different from downloading 
images from a
pre-existing database or archive?  How is it more effective 
educationally?


LFrench637:	We only have a few more minutes.  I would like to see 
if peopl have initial reactions to
LFrench637:	the questions Roy posed:
SheM2G:	!
LFrench637:	How is using MicroObservatory different from downloading 
images from a
LFrench637:	pre-existing database or archive?  How is it more 
effective educationally?
Lwaxman:	!
Everhartj:	!
LFrench637:	Obviously we can't discuss it in 7 minutes...but we 
could start.
BMellin503:	!
LFrench637:	GA Sheila.
SheM2G:	I feel as if I can answer this question because I learned 
astronomy within the last year
SheM2G:	(literally).  It is different I think especially when you 
are looking
SheM2G:	for the object that you want to take the image of.  I had 
no idea what to expect, and it involved a fair amount of work to 
find the	object for me, and I learned in the process.
JCatanz1:	!
SheM2G:	I think it is best when you try to do so, you learn a lot about
SheM2G:	the aky in the process.
SheM2G:	GA
LFrench637:	thanks.  GA Larry.
Lwaxman:	I believe the difference lies in the fact that the student 
actually took the pictures.
Lwaxman:	It is in the problem solving that goes into a 
successful result that seems to spark the stud
Lwaxman:	GA
NO1STAR:	!
Nazin:	!
LFrench637:	GA John.
Everhartj:	It's the ownership of the image that makes the difference
Everhartj:	The fact that a student undertgoes research, trial and error 
and all of the other
Everhartj:	things that are so important to scientific discovery
Everhartj:	GA
LFrench637:	I think Bruce was next in the queue.  This is too important 
to stop here.
LFrench637:	Why don't we post ideas to the bulletin board?
LFrench637:	GA BRuce and then we'll stop for the day.
BMellin503:	Ditto  ...The Image is YOURS!! "Refrigerator magnet" time - 
ownership means at lot !... GA