MICROOBSERVATORY ONLINE DISCUSSION
THURSDAY, JULY 24
TOPIC:
Rob Ochs and Linda French discuss their  
MicroObservatory Project in
progress, "Observing Jupiter and its Moons."


You have just entered room ÒmicroobservatoryÓ

RobOchs:	HI
R Maki:	Greetings!
RobOchs:	An interesting note just on CNN ... AOL plans 
to release all
RobOchs:	of our home telephone numbers to tele-marketers!
RobOchs:	July 30!!
RobOchs:	For 50 million dollars
Everhartj:	Is there any way we could prevent this?
RobOchs:	Lots want a class action suit
Everhartj:	That's all I need, another telemarketer 
interrupting my dinner
LFrench637:	Hi everyone!  I go nuts when that happens.
RobOchs:	Just ask them for their number and tell them 
you will call them at home
Everhartj:	Or ask THEM for THEIR credit card number
LFrench637:	I just try to get off the phone asap.
BHoff1:	Welcome to today's MicroObservatory Online Meeting.
BHoff1:	Quick announcement:  Please contact me (via im or 
email) if you have
BHoff1:	NOT received the 2 articles I mailed to you, as we will 
focus on "Teaching
BHoff1:	Physics Online" in an online discussion next week.
BHoff1:	To make a comment, type "!" Type "GA" to let others 
know you are done.
BHoff1:	Type !!,  when you wish to respond to something 
someone has just said,
BHoff1:	rather than to comment on the original question posed.
BHoff1:	Don't forget to take advantage of 
Instant Messages (IM's).
BHoff1:	Today Rob Ochs and Linda French will discuss their  
MicroObservatory Project in
BHoff1:	progress, "Observing
BHoff1:	Jupiter and its Moons."
BHoff1:	They will give an overview of the project.  
The rest of us will
BHoff1:	give them our comments, feedback, and
BHoff1:	questions on their project.  Keep in mind your 
own project ideas, and feel free to ask
BHoff1:	Rob and Linda questions that might be related to 
its development, based on what
BHoff1:	they've done so far.
BHoff1:	Would Rob or Linda like to begin?
LFrench637:	I'll start if you like.
BHoff1:	GA Linda
LFrench637:	What is online and available to everyone 
is what I was able to put together before the start
LFrench637:	of our online workshop.
LFrench637:	I envision it as a web site, like Sheila 
has begun, when it is completed.
LFrench637:	I am particularly interested in the historical 
and philosophical significance
LFrench637:	of the discovery of Jupiter's moons, and in 
students observing patterns from night to night.
LFrench637:	What surprised me, as a professional astronomer, 
is how difficult it is to determine which
LFrench637:	moon is which!
LFrench637:	So, one of my learning goals for my students will 
be "How can we figure this out?"
LFrench637:	Once that is established, it is then possible to 
verify Kepler's third law, and to
LFrench637:	find the mass of Jupiter.  I think Rob is working 
more with this part so I will
LFrench637:	let him address it.
LFrench637:	I have a section "What do you think"?
LFrench637:	which is intended to probe for misconceptions or 
preconceived ideas.  I'd appreciate
LFrench637:	suggestions for this section.  I welcome your 
comments.  GA
BHoff1:	Rob--would you like to add to this?
RobOchs:	Yes ...
BHoff1:	GA Rob
RobOchs:	I have attended the ASP and NSTA conferences 
the last few
RobOchs:	years and was plesently surprised by the projects
RobOchs:	that the CLEA project is doing.  They have one 
project 	called the Revolution of the Moons of Jupiter.  
I tried it 	with my students in the late part of this 
year and they really enjoyed working with it and learned a lot.  
It involves following the
RobOchs:	satellites of Jupiter for 18 days and 
recording the data as to the
RobOchs:	position of the four bright statellites.  
The purpose is to draw a
RobOchs:	sine curve through the data points (measured 
in terms of Jupiter
RobOchs:	widths) to determine the period and greatest 
distance of each of
RobOchs:	the four satellites.  With the program it is 
easy to do in spide
RobOchs:	of the "cloudy nights" that have been programmed 
into the project
RobOchs:	I was so happy with the results, I decided that 
it would be fun to see
RobOchs:	if the project could be converted to mo.
RobOchs:	As Linda says, the major problem is to determine 
which 	satellite is which from the images.  
Of course one can use The Sky
RobOchs:	or other program to ease frustration but that 
is the major problem
RobOchs:	I see.  Thanks to Joe's idea of using the IR 
filter I have been able to
RobOchs:	very accurately determine the position of the 
satellites.  I have not had
SheM2G:	!!
RobOchs:	a chance to do the blue filter but will as soon 
as Danny clear 	our area.
RobOchs:	I have three students working on the raw data 
and they really enjoy it.
RobOchs:	By the way ... CLEA has another project that might
RobOchs:	be good for mo ... Photoelectric Photometry of 
the Pleiades
JCatanz1:	!!
RobOchs:	The adedress for CLEA is 
io.cc.gettysburg.edu:/pub/clea_products
RobOchs:	I will now pause to rest my fingers and 
open for questions GA
BHoff1:	GA Sheila
SheM2G:	I just wanted to second Joe's idea of using 
the IR filter.  I am pleased with my results.
SheM2G:	I am sending instant messages now, but I 
have some thoughts on the
SheM2G:	"what do you think?" part, and on the photometry.  
I will go after joe, if that is OK.  GA
BHoff1:	Sure, GA Joe
JCatanz1:	I tried the blue filter and got good 
results with 1 second
LFrench637:	!!
JCatanz1:	exposure, using ZOOM IN settin
JCatanz1:	but the images of the moons are like 
donuts on both 	Ben and Annie. I think the focus is not 
set correctly.
JCatanz1:	Also, I too have been very impressed with 
the CLEA labs 	and plan to use them in my lab curriculum.
JCatanz1:	There are labs on stellar spectoscopy, 
hubble constant,
JCatanz1:	energy flow in the sun, the rotation of mercury,
JCatanz1:	large scale structure in the universe, and a newly 
release one 	on radio astronomy of pulsars.  
These labs would get my vote
JCatanz1:	for best scientific pedagogical software 
I have ever seen.
JCatanz1:	GA
BHoff1:	GA LInda
LFrench637:	Thanks Beth.
LFrench637:	It shouldn't be necessary to use filters to 
get decent exposures of the moons.
LFrench637:	It's fine if people want to do it, but I have 
just worked with an overexposed Jupiter.
LFrench637:	But the filters sometimes change the focus of 
the telescope, and I suspect that's why Joe
LFrench637:	got doughnut images.
RobOchs:	!!
LFrench637:	GA Rob.
RobOchs:	My only problem with the overexposed Jupiter is 
that I must get
RobOchs:	a good reference diameter of the planet to use 
in getting 	the distances.  With the overexposed Jupiter, 
I was having a hard 	time doing that.  I am beginning to 
rectify that problem with
RobOchs:	the CCDSoft program that I just received in the 
mail and reallylike so far.  GA
LFrench637:	Aaah...I see.  Thanks!
BHoff1:	Sheila, did you want to suggest something for the 
'what do you think' part?
SheM2G:	First the photometric comments.  I did a lab in 
the fall (as a student at H.).  We used MO
SheM2G:	for photometric measurements, and were very pleased 
with the results.  (Better than the
SheM2G:	telescope we had access to in lab.)  Another student 
used MO scopes for photometric
SheM2G:	AHHH!!!!
SheM2G:	measurements of Pleiades.  Again, good results.  
I just wanted to let it be known
SheM2G:	that photometric measurements work fairly well.
SheM2G:	Before misconception thoughts, I have a question
SheM2G:	What is CCDSoft?
JCatanz1:	!!
BHoff1:	GA Joe
JCatanz1:	CCD soft is an image processing program sold by 
Software Bisque
JCatanz1:	But I wanted to ask what software you used 
to do magnitude
RobOchs:	!!
JCatanz1:	prhotometry on the Pleides? GA
BHoff1:	GA Rob
RobOchs:	CCD Soft is so easy to use I was doing magnitude 
readings 	my first day.  You just point out a known magnitude 
and it then 	references all of the other ones ... 
lots of fun to use.  GA
SheM2G:	I think the Pleiades measurements were taken 
with a PC program	called Sky, I will have to 
get back to you.  GA
BHoff1:	Back to the Jupiter activity itself--any questions?
SheM2G:	!
BHoff1:	GA Sheila--then if you'd like to bring up 
misconceptins, please do.
SheM2G:	I think the misconception issue is a HUGE one, 
and worth discussing.
SheM2G:	I interviewed students this year on the lunar eclipse, 
and I used the "what do
SheM2G:	you think approach?" in trying to discern their ideas.  
Amazing.  In addition to talking
SheM2G:	about imaging and mathematical measurements, 
I am very interested in hearing how
you all confront misconceptions.  
I have been working more on the Moon
SheM2G:	pages, and I am interested in taking a much 
more conceptual approach.  In addition,
SheM2G:	I have been trying to take pictures of other 
planets (including Jupiter), and from the point
SheM2G:	of view of someone who knows the MO telescopes 
and imaging and physics MUCH more than she
SheM2G:	knows astronomy, I find that a large part of my 
learning is what to expect
SheM2G:	from the images of objects in the sky.  
I am going nowhere, I am typing as I think
LFrench637:	!
SheM2G:	but I am really interested in adressing 
misconceptions.  GA
BHoff1:	GA Linda
LFrench637:	I'm interested in Sheila's last point...
about learning what to expect.  Can you expand on
LFrench637:	that, Sheila?  GA
SheM2G:	Sure
SheM2G:	Two years ago, I could not have told you 
how many planets were in the
SheM2G:	solar system, or what order they were in from the Sun.  
Scale was a HUGE issure
SheM2G:	woops issue for me.  I did not understand what was out 
there or where to look for it.  And
SheM2G:	anything beyond the solar system I could not imagine.  
In fact, I really did not know
SheM2G:	what solar system and galaxy and universe meant.  A lot 
of my friends now when they ask me
SheM2G:	what I am doing (friends in medical school, or in 
accounting) they ask what the
SheM2G:	milky way galaxy is, and then they want to know if 
there other galaxies.  GA
LFrench637:	!
BHoff1:	GA Linda
LFrench637:	Ok...thanks.  For the Jupiter activity, the only 
thing I have come up with
LFrench637:	is a series of pictures of the planet with moons 
on either side of it,
LFrench637:	and asking the students how to explain it.  
But there must be other questions as well.
THocking:	!!
LFrench637:	As with the phases of the Moon, we can ask 
"what causes the Moon's phases",
LFrench637:	but we can ask other questions, like what 
time does the Full Moon rise?
LFrench637:	GA Tom.
THocking:	As for the Jupiter activity, there's another 
question that could be asked,
RobOchs:	!
THocking:	even before the background of Jovian moon 
history is discussed...
THocking:	Simply show a picture of Jupiter and the "dots" 
and see if they cantell, without showing
THocking:	motion, what they are seeing...
THocking:	Then, add motion...and then, once they've figured 
out that the "dots"
THocking:	belong to Jupiter, you can go on with 
the history...  GA
BHoff1:	GA Rob
RobOchs:	It might be fun to ask what time the full 
moon Io would rise if you were on the red spot.
RobOchs:	I like to challenge some of the kids!  GA
LFrench637:	!
BHoff1:	GA Linda
LFrench637:	Depends on the time zones on Jupiter!  :-)
LFrench637:	I think Tom's question was the same as 
mine, except he expressed it better.
LFrench637:	I will keep thinking about it.  Please send me 
questions or thoughts
LFrench637:	about the writeup that's online so far.  Thanks all.
LFrench637:	GA
MrichardXX:	!!
BHoff1:	GA Mike
MrichardXX:	Another "simple" question could be, Why do the 
moons vary in brightness?
MrichardXX:	ga
BHoff1:	What might the students do to answer that?
MrichardXX:	I dont know what they would do ...
THocking:	!!
MrichardXX:	but I bet most of my kids would have a problem  
with a good answer
SheM2G:	!
MrichardXX:	ga
BHoff1:	GA Tom
THocking:	I think one of the ways to elicit an answer 
would be to back up and
THocking:	ask what would make a moon bright or 
dim in the first place.?
RobOchs:	!!
THocking:	GA
BHoff1:	GA Sheila
SheM2G:	I think the key is to be asking these sort of 
questions and allowing the student to spill
SheM2G:	what is inside their head.  I am really happy 
to be discussing this.  Thanks all for
SheM2G:	comments.  GA
BHoff1:	GA Rob
RobOchs:	I like the experimental approach ... I modified 
an old SPICA lab that uses different
RobOchs:	types of soil and a flashlight.  They shine the 
flashlight on the various
RobOchs:	soils and measure the reflection with a light meter.  
Gives them a good experience
RobOchs:	with albedo GA
BMellin503:	!
BHoff1:	GA Bruce
BMellin503:	I liked your approach on the Jupiter lab
BMellin503:	The first imaging system we used as a MO 8 years 
ago imaged jupiter quite well(we even saw ..
BMellin503:	some lateral markings that might have been clouds 
are different latitudes...
BMellin503:	The newer MO we use today cannot get the planet
BMellin503:	but over-exposed the moons show up ...something 
the old model failed to show...
BMellin503:	the "online"jupiter was elegant....forget jupiter...
go for the Moons...
BMellin503:	sort of a keep it simple approach...leaving the 
math...which I remenber working out on a ...
BMellin503:	spread sheet...as an extension...the lesson you
(linda and rob) was that a sucessful lab...
BMellin503:	one with limited misconcrption to addresss...
is best kept simple...thanks..I needed that..ga
BHoff1:	Thanks Bruce.  Are there any more comments on the 
Jupiter activity?
BHoff1:	I have several topic ideas for online sessions, but 
want to give you all the
BHoff1:	chance to make suggestions.  I don't have 1 specifically 
chosen for tomorrow.
BHoff1:	Is there anything in particular any of you would like 
to address tomorrow, as
BHoff1:	we come to the end of week 2 of the workshop?
BHoff1:	Ga
RobOchs:	!
BHoff1:	GA Rob
RobOchs:	Something I would like to have discussed is capacity 
of the mo systtem
RobOchs:	We started to discuss it yesterday and I know
RobOchs:	several are concerned about what added 
numbers will do GA
BHoff1:	We can certainly spend an online discussion on that.  
However, I will schedule it for next week, as it will 
be important for Freeman DEutsch to be online for that, and he 
will not be online tomorrow.
BHoff1:	In fact, if people have specific questions, 
you can email them to me,
BHoff1:	and we can see that they get addressed when 
we discuss it online.
BHoff1:	Some if it we obviously won't know, until 
it actually happens,
BHoff1:	but of course we want to know what to anticipate.
BHoff1:	Other topic suggestions?GA
Nazin:	!
BHoff1:	GA Bill
Nazin:	I would like to discuss any and all successes 
in taking 	"Good" pictures?  What camera what lens? 
What exposures? What time?  I guess this could be done on 
the BB but it hasn't as of yet.    Ga
BHoff1:	Okay--as you said, perhaps people can post 
a message directing others to their image when they've taken 
one that's especially good.
BHoff1:	Others can 'get info' on the image for future use.
BHoff1:	It's also a good idea to check the archive, 
which contains many interesting images, and copy the info 
from the ones that are suitable for you.
BHoff1:	The meeting is officially over--feel free to stay 
on and continue your im's, or send messages to the room.
BHoff1:	Protocol is off.
THocking:	Well folks, I'm gonna scoot!   See you later!
BHoff1:	Bye Tom.  I'm off too--see you all tomorrow, 1:30 EDT