MicroObservatory Online Chat Session
Wednesday, July 30
TOPIC:  
We are considering ways to assess students' abilities pre 
and post using the telescopes.  For example, we could ask 
a single question (such as a multiple choice question) each 
time the user requests an image.  How would students 
respond to this:  Would their answers be an adequate 
representation of their understanding?
BHoff1: Would the questions motivate their curiosity?  
Would it inspire group collaboration?  Or perhaps competition?  
Would either of these be advantageous or detrimental to 
learning?   Might the questions deter users from 
requesting images?  Might they distract students from 
the task at hand?  What are your thoughts?
SheM2G: Hi.
Everhartj:      hello from the rainy beach :(
SheM2G: Just as an aside, the discussion in the town 
square each day when I log in really frightens
SheM2G: me.
LFrench637:     "Discussion", Sheila?
SheM2G: Good point.
LFrench637:     I have this room on my list of Favorite 
Places so I can skip the Town Square.
Everhartj:      I dont think we should invite any of those 
to join us
LFrench637:     I don't think they'd be interested very long!  :)
BHoff1: Okay, here we go....
BHoff1: Welcome to today's MicroObservatory Online Meeting.
BHoff1: Here is the protocol: To make a comment, type "!" Type 
"GA" to let others know you are
BHoff1: done.  Type !!,  when you wish to respond to something 
someone has just said,
BHoff1: rather than to comment on the original question 
posed.   Use Instant Messages (IM's).
BHoff1: We are considering ways to assess students' 
abilities pre and post using the telescopes.  For example, we 
could ask a single question (such as a multiple
BHoff1: choice question) each time the user requests 
an image.  How would students respond to
BHoff1: this:  Would their answers be an adequate 
representation of their understanding?
BHoff1: Would the questions motivate their curiosity?  
Would it inspire group collaboration?
BHoff1: Or perhaps competition?  Would either of these 
be advantageous or detrimental to
JCatanz1:       !!
BHoff1: learning?   Might the questions deter users from 
requesting images?  Might they
BHoff1: distract students from the task at hand?  
What are your thoughts?
BHoff1: Whew.  GA Joe
JCatanz1:       I think it would deter users from 
requesting images.
JCatanz1:       GA
R Maki: 1
BHoff1: GA Dick
R Maki: Answering a multiple-choice question 
ONCE, perhaps embeded in
R Maki: a "registration" on screen for one month (+/-) 
in the fall, would be OK.
R Maki: After 1st response, there has to be a way to 
by-pass..."disregard if already registered"
THocking:       !
R Maki: You could try the question (s) in the spring and 
measure changes GA
BHoff1: GA Tom
THocking:       I think the question if present all the time, 
would be a roadblock....
MrichardXX:     !
THocking:       but as a check for knowing the MO system, 
that's a good check...
THocking:       perhaps if a wrong answer is picked, the 
person could be sent to the pertinentsection
THocking:       of the user's guide for a refresher before 
going to the scopes... GA
BMellin503:     !
BHoff1: GA Bruce?
BMellin503:     I am here...lost in an IM
BMellin503:     Why do "we" need to assess...For the project 
or our "funding"?
BMellin503:     Why not Use a "questionaire" format say in Oct 
or nov when students have had experience..ga
LFrench637:     !
BHoff1: GA Linda
LFrench637:     I think Mike was in the queue before me.
BHoff1: oops--GA Mike, then Linda
MrichardXX:     I hate to sound negative,but I don't like the 
idea at all. I plan to use the MO as
MrichardXX:     something of a research tool for my kids, 
Multiple choice questions will take
MrichardXX:     away fom this. How about one pretest and 
one post test in some format. GA
Lwaxman:        !!
BHoff1: That's certainly possible--we can come back to it
--GA Larry
AlbertM497:     !
LFrench637:     ! again
Lwaxman:        How about Linda
Lwaxman:        First
BHoff1: Yours was a !!
Lwaxman:        I want to follow her
BHoff1: GA Linda
LFrench637:     Thanks Beth.  :)
LFrench637:     I don't think the multiple choice question 
with each use would be useful.
LFrench637:     We don't expect them to make huge 
conceptual strides
CynSol: !
LFrench637:     with each use of the telescope in a 
regular observing course...sometimes it happens,
LFrench637:     but not every time.  I agree that it would 
probably put people off.  How about at the
LFrench637:     beginning and end of the unit with MO?
LFrench637:     GA
BHoff1: GA Larry
Lwaxman:        Why not give our feedback in the way of the 
finished reports with the pictures and research
Lwaxman:        attached.  Sorry I came in late to the discussion... 
AOL... but I don't like the idea of
Lwaxman:        putting my kids on the block all the time.  
The finished product is what I'm after and would
RobOchs:        !
Lwaxman:        be of benefit to the project alo I believe.  GA
BHoff1: GA Mary
AlbertM497:     A pre test/post test to measure what? 
Knowledge? Accuracy? Concepts?  For MO staff's use?
AlbertM497:     For participating teachers' use?  GA
BHoff1: All of the above would be the intention.  
GA Cynthia
CynSol: Oh, well I agree with people who wonder 
what is being asserssed
CynSol: I think the assessment of the MO is about whether we can
JCatanz1:       !!
CynSol: offer kids a different kind of experience.  
an opportunity to do real investigation.  It is about it a
CynSol: as a teaching and learning tool
R Maki: !
CynSol: anyway I am opposed to online multiple 
choice questionaires for ??? purposes
CynSol: ga
Everhartj:      !
BHoff1: I think everyone is in agreement on this so 
far--GA Rob
RobOchs:        I would favor using something like a journal 
with the research and images included.
RobOchs:        I also like Larry's idea of a finished product.
RobOchs:        I am NOT in favor of ANY objective type of 
assessment.  We are
RobOchs:        trying to get kids to write not choose between 
given options.  GA
BHoff1: GA Dick
R Maki: The questions would have to be pretty general.  Folks 
are going to be taking
THocking:       !
R Maki: different parts out of the Mo experience, few will 
likely take the entire experience.
R Maki: ga
BHoff1: GA Tom
Nazin:  !
THocking:       I think the whole direction of education 
reform was to take us awy from multiple choice test
THocking:       and toward critical thinking...
THocking:       This is just a different kind of mult choice test, 
unless there is a security or other point
THocking:       not obvious here....
THocking:       If it's assessment of our students you want to 
see, there are alternate routes for that.
THocking:       GA
LFrench637:     !
BHoff1: GA Linda
LFrench637:     I think a couple of folks were in the queue 
ahead of me...am I right?
BHoff1: We weren't sure if Joe was ready--Joe?
BHoff1: GA Linda for now--he is imming I think
JCatanz1:       I am strongly in favor of an objective 
assessment of what was learned from use of the telescope.
JCatanz1:       I don't understand all this resistance to MultiChoice
Everhartj:      !
CynSol: !
JCatanz1:       tests as a tool they can be quite good if 
designed well. -- even though as I said
JCatanz1:       I am opposed to having it as a barrier to 
the telescope.  After all, what is the point of giving 
this experience to kids, if not to provoke learning!
JCatanz1:       Expectations will of course be different
at the different grade levels.
JCatanz1:       I certainly plan to assess what my students 
have learned during their use of the MO telescope.
As an answer to the concerns of the MO staff:
JCatanz1:       I would be happy to implement whatever 
test instruments the MO staff wants to devise, and  
reporting on the results.  GA
BHoff1: GA Linda
AlbertM497:     !!
LFrench637:     Ok, thanks.
LFrench637:     I would like to see an example of a question 
that would be administered.
LFrench637:     I am not a priori averse to some sort of 
testing, but I think testing each time an image is
LFrench637:     requested is not at all practical.  
For example, focusing the telescope will take about 10
LFrench637:     images minimum.  That's before one 
starts observing.
LFrench637:     I think we need to rethink the 
"requirements" here.
LFrench637:     GA
BHoff1: GA John
Everhartj:      I think that the reality of the situation 
is that only Multiple Choice questions will be responded to.  
We certainly dont want any barriers to scope use and i feel 
that any question requiring an extended answer would 
discourage student use.  I think Joe's idea of classroom
Everhartj:      administered tests on MO would be OK.  
I plan to teach MO use and will test on its use
Everhartj:      anyway GA
BHoff1: GA Cynthia
CynSol: I think Bill was first
CynSol: ga
BHoff1: You're right--sorry--ga Bill
Nazin:  The assessment of children is always a hard 
issue for me.  By what measure do you assess?  
The use of questions to go along
Nazin:  with the operation of the scopes is interesting.  
I think there might be a difference between upper and 
lower grades, but this is
Nazin:  what I think.  First, competition between 
children is not
Nazin:  something I see  needing help.  It happens.  
This often locks out the girls for whatever reason.  
As a teacher I am always looking for real questions.
Nazin:  They usually are questions I don't
Nazin:  know the answer to.  The children I teach 
are so used to answering questions intended to assess
they often don't see their
Nazin:  own questions as important.  I would like 
it better if you put up
Nazin:  questions from students for other students 
or MO staff to answer.
Nazin:  I think the product is an obvious choice for 
the best means of
Nazin:  judging how MO worked for them.  ga
BHoff1: GA Mary
AlbertM497:     Assessment  and it's vehicle always 
seem to be  volitile issues!  Especially at the
AlbertM497:     younger levels.  It seems to require 
a lot of justification.GA
MrichardXX:     !
BHoff1: GA Mike
MrichardXX:     A pretest and posttest could be multiple 
choice if you want to know what  kids have
MrichardXX:     learned about using MO. You could even use 
the same pre/post test. I'm curious
CynSol: 1
MrichardXX:     about what  you want to test for? Some 
kids will have spent 6 months in school on
MrichardXX:     astronomy topics and some 6 days ! Will 
you ask both groups astronomy questions
MrichardXX:     or MO questions?  I like multiple choice, 
easy to corect,but they are out in a big
MrichardXX:     way in K-12 education. Also, Please dont 
make kids answer questions to use the
MrichardXX:     scopes! GA
BHoff1: I think we're hearing you loud and clear on that one.
BHoff1: I've been missing people today, if anyone is waiting 
to speak, please let me know.
RobOchs:        !
BHoff1: Thanks, GA Rob
RobOchs:        What I am going to say will probably not be 
popular but I feel that some
RobOchs:        type of pre qualification to use the scopes is 
vital, speaking for my own
RobOchs:        students only.  I would like to think they are 
all motivated and reliable but
RobOchs:        the fact is, they are not.  Some are, some are 
not.  I think a "driver's license"
RobOchs:        would be appropriate.  It should be minimal 
but they should know at least
RobOchs:        the basics and have demonstrated a certain 
movivation and responsible attitude. GA
LFrench637:     !
BHoff1: Ga Linda
CynSol: !
LFrench637:     I was just coming to the idea of a 
"learner's permit" myself...I like that idea.
LFrench637:     What I was objecting to was the suggested 
requirement of answering a question for each image
LFrench637:     taken, which would definitely discourage 
use in a big way.
Everhartj:      !!
SheM2G: !!
BHoff1: Linda?
LFrench637:     oops!  GA. sorry.
BHoff1: GA Cynthia
CynSol: I have so much to say.  First I don't know what
CynSol: objective assessment is.
CynSol: I am not sure about learner's permits.  What's the 
point.  Perhaps some kids need to help others.
CynSol: I think that some sort of reflective portfolio 
assessment from teacher and students with lots of examp
CynSol: eamples would be helpful.
CynSol: Certainly, kids asking questions of one another
CynSol: anyway, assessment of a new thing is hard to do 
in an old way.
CynSol: ga
BHoff1: GA John
Everhartj:      I am in favor of the MO licensing test.  I think 
that then students could earn the right to
Everhartj:      image.  Teachers could demonstrate usage using 
their own password and then issue
Lwaxman:        !!
Everhartj:      passwords to those students who show competency.  
They could then group less knowledgable
Everhartj:      students with those of higher MO competencies
Everhartj:      GA
Nazin:  !
LFrench637:     I thnk Beth got bumped.
LFrench637:     Ga Larry.
Lwaxman:        I have had at least 90 to 110 students on the MO.  
I have them pass a test of useage to me
NO1STAR:        !
BHoff1: I'm here again--anyone before Bob?
Lwaxman:        or to my aids to be able to get their group 
on the MO.  It Works.  GA
LFrench637:     GA Sheila.  Sorry I missed you.
SheM2G: Of course some students are more reliable and 
responsible than others.  But will a learning
SheM2G: permit/assessment really be necessary?  Back 
to Larry's comments earlier, isn't the
SheM2G: final result what really matters.  Clearly, some
kids will have a stronger grasp on
SheM2G: the operability of the scopes, and it will show in 
the work they complete.
SheM2G: I think we need to recognize that maneuvering the 
scopes is a bit intimidating at first.
SheM2G: It is quite different than anything than many kids 
have ever tried.  To add a test of
SheM2G: some sort or a learning permit to use the scopes 
may have some intimidating results.
SheM2G: If it is possible for the students that are truly 
interested in the scopes to use them, and
SheM2G: even be tested without any such intimidation factors, 
then I suppose a learning
SheM2G: permit would work.  I still believe it is the work 
completed with them (the final product)
SheM2G: that matters.  GA
BHoff1: GA Bill
MrichardXX:     !
Nazin:  I'm thinking I would not object to a question such 
as what phase
Nazin:  will the moon be in tonight?  A question that 
would change often
Nazin:  but be easily assessable with  a little research 
or knowledge.
Nazin:  This would in some ways insure that the students 
were interested
Nazin:  enough to continue working and not just taking 
pictures for the
Nazin:  sake of taking pictures.  GA.
BHoff1: I like that idea--GA Bob
Nazin:  will the moon be in tonight?  A question that 
would change often
Nazin:  but be easily assessable with  a little research 
or knowledge.
Nazin:  This would in some ways insure that the students 
were interested enough to continue working and not 
just taking pictures for the
Nazin:  sake of taking pictures.  GA.
BHoff1: I like that idea--GA Bob
CynSol: !
NO1STAR:        I assume we are discussing password protection 
and use ?  I think that this is a matter of t
NO1STAR:        their own access so that we can keep 
track of individuals ?
NO1STAR:        GA
NO1STAR:        trust
BHoff1: GA Mike
MrichardXX:     I used the MO last year with kids in grades
10-12. Never had a problem with
MrichardXX:     misuse. I see MO as a tool.  Show the kids 
the basics and give them some freedom to
MrichardXX:     explore. Even my "bone heads"...  OOPS... under
-achievers loved it, and the
MrichardXX:     opportunity to use it. GA
BHoff1: GA Cynthia
CynSol: I agrre with Mike and think that some 
issues will arise
CynSol: that are community issues and will need 
to be discussed.
CynSol: My experience with computers is they are 
intimidating to newcomers and partly because they
CynSol: are afraid to make mistakes.
CynSol: What is the worst thing that could happen if 
a novice uses MO?
LFrench637:     !
CynSol: Again, assessment as others have said is personal.
CynSol: ga
BHoff1: GA Linda
LFrench637:     I didn't mean to jump on Cynthia's toes but 
I was coming to the same conclusion.
LFrench637:     The telescopes are pretty indestructible.
LFrench637:     The main point of having a learner's permit, 
I think, is motivation.  If it can be done in a
NO1STAR:        !
LFrench637:     positive way, I'm for it.  If not, forget it.  I 
think the telescopes should
LFrench637:     be used as much as possible, for that is 
how people learn.
LFrench637:     GA
BHoff1: GA Bob
NO1STAR:        I think the important things is for each student 
to get at least one image that they did
NO1STAR:        themselves and to encourage projects that 
require planning and  gaining the experience of what real 
research is like including the
NO1STAR:        frustrations sometimes  : )   GA